Online Persistent World Ambition

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Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby TsujiBan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:43 pm

Hi! Sorry for the length.

My wife and I have been discussing our idea for an online game we would like to write for several years now. We have had a lot of conversations about our ideas and have a lot of enthusiasm. To be honest, part of me doesn't want to write the game, I just want to *play* it, but what we are looking for doesn't seem to exist yet, so I guess we either write it or we wait years and years.

She has been a C++ developer for over ten years. After college, I was a C coder for about a year, and then got into System Administration, so my coding skills are very very rusty. We both realize that we need to start small on "doable" projects first, and that "the game" that we always talk about is a pretty ambitious idea.

We want to create a 2D game client ("Gameplay, Not Graphics" is our mantra), a server architecture that allows processes to be able to relocate to different physical hosts for scalability so we can run on commodity priced hardware, with a SQL back end to make the game world persistent. We want to eliminate tedious and repetitive level-grinding--don't computers exist to automate tedious, repetitive tasks? And what's more tedious and repetitive than killing NPCs? We want to present the appearance of "zonelessness"--the real world doesn't have "edges". We want to make the game world as enjoyable to casual players as it is to people who spend hours every day there. We want to design against griefing, and to promote (but not dictate) cooperation. We want to model ecology in the game world more deeply that what we see in current commercial products. We want to design towards an economy that is robust and self-correcting, as it is in the real world. And we want to fly to the moon in a spaceship made of diamonds! :-) Yes these are ambitious (and perhaps unreachable) goals, but the one thing we do *not* want to do is write Yet Another Fantasy MMORPG where the primary game architectural directive is written by the marketing department and some CFO: to prolong average paying subscription time by means of forcing our customers into some stupid levelling metaphor.

And I know, the backend part of this is daunting. Dining Philosophers, race conditions and all sorts of complexities arise with this kind of design. Maybe we'll never get there. But I feel like, if I can at least, in my lifetime, create a simple multiplayer environment with some simple actions that persist in the game world across server restarts, then I may not be "Da Vinci" but at least I can go to my grave knowing I qualified as "House Painter". :) It would be something I could be proud of, even if I don't completely succeed... something beyond just "Work, Collect Paycheck, Pay Bills, Eat, Sleep, Repeat". :-)

I am learning C++... object oriented programming hurts my brain. :) I'm an old school procedural coding guy, so I have a learning curve here, but that's ok, learning is fun. I realize that even with single player there are so many things to learn, and deciding *what* to learn is a big job in itself--Visual Studio? Ogre? DirectX? Java for the front end? And then to throw in networking is a big deal, and then to add the SQL persistence (robust, low-latency database read/write journaling queue manager process--argh!) is yet another complexity. So we're trying to figure out how to not reinvent the wheel as much as possible--to be as efficient as possible with our development time.

I found this which looks like it may be a promising networking framework: http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/raknet/manual/introduction.html so we won't have to write the whole networking infrastructure from scratch.

We want to run the server stuff on linux. I just can't bring myself to learn .NET, and C# is out of the question to me.

For the frontend game client, my first thought was Java for portability... write once, run everywhere. Looking through O'Reilly's "Killer Game Programming in Java" made me think this might be a good idea. But that is yet another learning curve for us, so the more I think about it, the more I think it would be better to stick to C++ for server AND client... I've known people who can effortlessly switch between C, C++, Python, Perl, can rattle off regular expressions fluently etc. but I have to recognize my own limitations. I don't think I'm one of those guys... before that first coffee in the morning, I can barely operate home appliances. :)

So my question is (sorry for the length) is GE something that would lend itself to my project? It seems like I should be able to get GE and something like RAKNET to live harmoniously together without needing access to the GE source...? My concern is that I don't want to spend months learning something like GE only to find that there are some restrictions it imposes, and then have to start from scratch anyways--maybe better to start from scratch from the beginning?

Sorry if this is vague, I am just hoping that some of you out there (who from the forum posts I've looked at clearly are *way* more knowledgeable and experienced than I) might be able to give me some advice. And again, I understand that jumping into some big client-server project is not the way to start. We have outlined some first steps we need to take, and we plan to do many throwaway test projects strictly as exercises to get me up to basic competence. But we do want to keep our eyes on the final destination, and would really like to avoid running a long way down roads that end up leading us away from our goal... does that make sense?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks very much for your time.
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby makslane » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:07 pm

Hi TsujiBan,

Welcome to the Game Editor community!

The RakNet was used in the old network development in Game Editor.
When Game Editor becomes open source, I talk with RakNet creator about the license compatibility and He told me is not possible use publish the RakNet source with the same license used by Game Editor. So, I have removed the RakNet dependencies in Game Editor. There are other good network librarie that Game Editor can use (VAST and ASCEND for example).

As Game Editor network is not ready, You need to go into the Game Editor code to make a network libraries works with the current code.

Game Editor needs to have easy way to make network games (even massive multiplayer games).

We can read some thoughts about the plans of a Game Editor network here:
http://code.game-editor.com/ticket/3

Best Regards,
Makslane
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If you like Game Editor, make a review!
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby TsujiBan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:47 pm

Thanks for the welcome and the information! I am playing with GE a little bit now and it is very impressive!

Too bad about the RakNet situation... have you considered a quasi-opensource licensing scheme for GE that might satisfy the RakNet people? Perhaps the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License or one of the licenses in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_licences would allow you to return to using RakNet, and save you a bunch of development time and effort?

I am not trying to push RakNet, I have only just started reading the documentation about it, and so am in no position to judge it at all... and thanks for the pointers to VAST and ASCEND, I will definitely get together with my wife and take a look at those. At this point, I need to learn about as many tools as possible... so many decisions to make! :)

Thanks again, and I wanted to say to you and the forum community here, after browsing through the forums, this has to be one of the most friendly, patient, helpful and courteous online communities I have ever come across--and I've been online since COMPUSERVE in 1982 (TRS-80 Model III 4TW!) :mrgreen: I'm very impressed by what I have seen here so far!
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby makslane » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:52 pm

TsujiBan wrote:Thanks for the welcome and the information! I am playing with GE a little bit now and it is very impressive!


:-)

Too bad about the RakNet situation... have you considered a quasi-opensource licensing scheme for GE that might satisfy the RakNet people?


I think the license must not be changed. RakNet is a good tool, but we can replace it with another good tool thats fit the GPL v3 license.

Thanks again, and I wanted to say to you and the forum community here, after browsing through the forums, this has to be one of the most friendly, patient, helpful and courteous online communities I have ever come across--and I've been online since COMPUSERVE in 1982 (TRS-80 Model III 4TW!) :mrgreen: I'm very impressed by what I have seen here so far!


Here in the forum we have a small but very good communty :-)
Game Editor is an open source game creator software that's wants to pay it's developers to keep evolving.
If you like Game Editor, make a review!
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby DragonRift » Tue May 21, 2013 2:48 pm

Has anyone had any headway on having a working network library in GE?
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby skydereign » Tue May 21, 2013 2:52 pm

DragonRift wrote:Has anyone had any headway on having a working network library in GE?

No one so far as I am aware has even tried in the past year.
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby DragonRift » Tue May 21, 2013 2:55 pm

skydereign wrote:
DragonRift wrote:Has anyone had any headway on having a working network library in GE?

No one so far as I am aware has even tried in the past year.


What about Socket.h + SQL?

I realize Windows does not have socket.h but I am just saying that there has to be a simple solution that can fit the license without much complication.
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby skydereign » Tue May 21, 2013 3:01 pm

DragonRift wrote:What about Socket.h + SQL?

Again, no one so far as I am aware has worked on any form of networking with gE in the past year. It isn't hard to keep track, as there are only three of us that have worked on gE dev.
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby DragonRift » Tue May 21, 2013 3:02 pm

skydereign wrote:
DragonRift wrote:What about Socket.h + SQL?

Again, no one so far as I am aware has worked on any form of networking with gE in the past year. It isn't hard to keep track, as there are only three of us that have worked on gE dev.


I would not know as I am unable to access any of the source, and any time I try and download the tar... it says the package is corrupt.

there is also: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_36_0/doc/html/boost_asio.html
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby skydereign » Tue May 21, 2013 3:08 pm

DragonRift wrote:I would not know as I am unable to access any of the source

The error on the tracker shouldn't prevent the svn co command provided from working (it at least works fine for me).
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby DragonRift » Tue May 21, 2013 5:54 pm

skydereign wrote:
DragonRift wrote:I would not know as I am unable to access any of the source

The error on the tracker shouldn't prevent the svn co command provided from working (it at least works fine for me).


@skydereign: does 1.5 have SQL?
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Re: Online Persistent World Ambition

Postby skydereign » Tue May 21, 2013 11:30 pm

DragonRift wrote:@skydereign: does 1.5 have SQL?

No, it does not.
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